Curse

samcobra · Apr 05, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I think that ANET faces some severe balance issues in PvE , but the problem is, since its not competitive and since PvE doesn't really matter, people [read: AI Mobs] dont bitch about them.
To lend validity, let me go into a few of them as far as I see it (feel free to add more after this post)

1) ANet makes areas harder by increasing raw damage, decreasing damage taken and cast time, and basically stupidifying the game.

2) To compensate, ANET adds retarded high-damage skills such as searing flames, etc. to deal with the stupidifying of the 'difficult' sections in PvE in the first place

3) These areas restrict team builds, skillbars, and party formations to stupid metagame ideas of -> tank, eles, monks, utility <- builds, which forces out niche classes and other game mechanics

4) PvE mobs' skillbars are complete crap. Examples are the torment warriors with sheild bash, but no shield, the divert hexes boss in an area where there are no hexes, etc. Seriously, put some thought into your monster designs. Or even better, MAKE MORE ALPHA TESTERS and actually use player-designed monster skillbars. I think that would help a lot more than the random crap the mobs have now.

5) To compensate for the repetitive nature of PvE and the overall lack of player quality in PvE, ANET adds more AI, in terms of heroes, but it compensates for their lack of being human by giving them way more damage than human beings (not a big problem, but a balance issue nonetheless). Why would anyone want to party with a random pug if their heroes can have better skillbars, better controls, and more damage?

6) To keep PvE interesting, instead of adding mentally challenging content, ANET adds "stupidifying" skills that allow people to do well in an area which is already retardedly designed by using retardedly broken skills, instead of actual team coordination and good skillbars. IE: ele goes around with searing flames, glowing gaze, and glyph sac met shower to take out touch necros, because the real counters to those classes cant be used in a retardedly high-hp/damage area (i'm talking dshot, diversion, etc)

6) to some extent, this isn't a big problem, but PvE mobs (enemies) should have well defined parties of 8 monsters each. Each of these parties should be a balanced team, allowing for balanced counters to them. The problem in PvE is the same as that in PvP. Say, in PvP, if you face a necrospike, you need to think differently to counter that with a balanced team. In PvE, everything is gimmicky, due to 1) the prevalance of same profession mobs and 2) their utilization of high-damage broken skills, and 3) the monsters' general lack of intelligently designed builds and the lack of good AI intelligence (GIVE MONSTERS A RADAR FFS). The enemy warriors should realize that they shouldn't go for the frontline and the mesmers should realize that they should probably migraine the casters instead of like a ranger or something[just examples, don't use these directly in counterargument].

Anyway, thats all I can come up with off the top of my head right now, but feel free to reply with your takes on this post, both positive and negative.

Kthx

-Samcobra

Obey The Cat · Apr 05, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

agree. that's why I hate lightbringer's gaze. it's a skill to compensate what you have written here.

ValaOfTheFens · Apr 05, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Good ideas. As much as I enjoy PvE I sometimes hunger for something more challenging.

TabascoSauce · Apr 05, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

I think your premise is sound, but your way of getting it across is a bit inflammatory. Allow me to put a slightly different spin on your post, at least in regards to skills and nerfing.

1) PvE and PvP share skills but are completely different environments and conditions. Specifically, the cookie-cutter build of the month was on a single-character basis for PvE, but team-wide for PvP. IWAY vs 55 monk, group vs singular.

2) Singular builds can capitalize on complimentary skills, such as SF and GG, or any hammer knockdown and earthquake/aftershock.

3) Group builds can capitalize on complimentary skills, as well as the same skill complimenting itself. The 8 paragon teams all using their skills serially, for example, so that they were always taking less damage via incoming, etc.

Points 2 and 3 define the difference between PvE and PvP.

4) ANet cannot allow any single build to dominate, that would eliminate competition. Thus, the nerfs are not randomly timed and targeted, they are a response from ANet viewing the PvP arena and seeing what players are doing. Once they find that next dominating build, particularly if it is based on a single skill, they must nerf it to keep things moving skill-wise.

5) Because their focus is on point 3 for nerfing builds, then effects to point 2 and the singular builds is not always desirable or planned. Unfortunately, PvE is secondary to PvP in terms of visibility, as there are no options to spectate PvE.

6) Most of the nerfed skills have synergy of some sort - they have multiple targets (paragon skills), or multiple sources (SR or IWAY, shields up), or stack in some way that is not as commonly used in PvE.

7) The heart of the matter and the conclusion to the points. Those weakened skills that were weakened because of the stacking effects are now virtually useless by themselves, and that is why PvE players feel attacked. They do not use those nerfed skills in an abusive way, and once those skills are weakened they are no longer useful.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

PS - asking for redoing the monster skills is a long-running request, and as far as I know ANet has no plans to....errr, isnt that coming in the next big update and hard mode? I guess we wait and see.

tomcruisejr · Apr 05, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

So no one complains when something needs to be changed in PvP

1) Make all PvE missions have 8 lvl20 monsters with 8 skill bars and using improved Hero AI and a flag stand to hold and gain morale boosts. Completion of the mission requires teams to kill level 26 monster named "I'm Teh Glint Bitch and Imma Eat your babies" or Dping out the 8 monsters. If 20 minutes have passed, "I'm Teh Glint Bitch and Imma eat your babies" will use it's secret weapon, the arcane echo, echo, spectral agony of doom and your team of 8 will have the chance to use your mini pets, them transforming to level 22 pets, each of those have their unique skills.

2) Make all Explorable have 8 lvl20 monsters with 8 skill bars and using improved Hero AI and a flag stand to hold and gain morale boosts. Completion of the mission requires teams to kill level 26 monster named "I'm Teh Glint Bitch and Imma Eat your babies" or Dping out the 8 monsters. If 20 minutes have passed, "I'm Teh Glint Bitch and Imma eat your babies" will use it's secret weapon, the arcane echo, echo, spectral agony of doom and your team of 8 will have the chance to use your mini pets, them transforming to level 22 pets, each of those have their unique skills.

3) Make all PvE quests have 8 lvl20 monsters with 8 skill bars and using improved Hero AI and a flag stand to hold and gain morale boosts. Completion of the mission requires teams to kill level 26 monster named "I'm Teh Glint Bitch and Imma Eat your babies" or Dping out the 8 monsters. If 20 minutes have passed, "I'm Teh Glint Bitch and Imma eat your babies" will use it's secret weapon, the arcane echo, echo, spectral agony of doom and your team of 8 will have the chance to use your mini pets, them transforming to level 22 pets, each of those have their unique skills.

So yea everything that needs to be balanced in PvP will be somehow warranted in PvE.

Exoudeous · Apr 05, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

I'm a heavy pve'r but i think i side mostly with the pvp side of things.

in pvp a build that can completely destroy enemies is ovrpowerd and needs to be fixed, and most pvpers agree with that.

in pve however, they thrive on the overpowerd builds. Pve people, wheather they realize it or not, dont want balance. if they did certain classes woudltnt have a hard time getting into groups. in pve people want the most raw power possible, which is why they complain more when something gets nerfd

XvArchonvX · Apr 05, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Personally, I'm still waiting for a PvE Elite type mission where there are only a few enemies with smart skill bars. Perhaps even instead of one sole mission, it could be a string of mini missions where each part has diverse setups to face and the player is allowed to setup a strategy for each one. This kind of design would not only diversify the experience, but would be more open to professions like Mesmer and Assasins who tend to shine when they face single opponents rather than mobs of enemies. A break from the wall and nuke approach would be appreciated.

samcobra · Apr 05, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

I'm not talking about skills at all. Player skills should be definitely determined by PvP and I stick by that. I'm talking about the general environment that players have to get through. The environment itself is bugged and imba. It eliminates a good balanced build from being able to successfully complete it and instead relies on gimmicks such as 3 sf eles with glyph sac met shower. Gimmicks are gimmicks, whether its in pve or pvp. I'm saying that the monsters in PvE create the meta, while imba skills in pvp create the meta. ANet is trying to create a good balance of player skills, but they also need to realize that the way they design pve is also as fundamentally imbalanced if not more imbalanced than the broken skills determining pvp meta.

TwinRaven · Apr 05, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

1) Damage to/from who? And "stupidifying"...George Bush's dictionary? Not exactly sure what your complaint is here...What profession you playing and how are you effected...specifics!

2) There's that word again...slowing it down? That's not a bad thing. I know of no PvE area that is too hard. Thunderhead Keep is challenging as are FoW, UW and FoS...but then, it keeps them from being boring and simple. Searing flames got you down? Run a ranger and take less damage...or RUN AWAY!

3) You playing a Mesmer and can't find a party? I run all sorts of groups through PvE just to see what can happen. "Forcing" builds? Doubtful...you are simply experiencing the same lack of imagination that plagues every outpost. Some people just expect a certain group formation to work best...blame them, not ANet.

4) Mobs' skillbars are crap? I'm confused...do you want the game harder or easier? Mobs tend to get away with things players don't...bigger aggro-bubbles, seeing through walls, etc. If they use skills that make no sense (i.e. shield bash without a sheild) so be it...plenty of mobs use skills without having the proper equipment....been that way since day one. You want hydras to carry wands and offhands? It'd look silly with those short little arms...

5) Repetative? How so? Do you follow along in the story or just run through the missions? As for the second part: Exactly...why would anyone run with PUGS when their heroes can sometimes be more competant? Isn't that what you want? I mean, you sounded like you had a problem with PUGS earlier.

6)Huh? Sounds retarded...not exactly sure what you are trying to say. Something like it's too easy and even dummies can do it thanks to over-powered skills? I see sometimes there are skills that hit mobs pretty hard but with the AI changes, they usually run from AoE...sometimes the buggers even kite. I personally like the challenge even though it has slowed down my casual farming when I need a couple k. I'm still confused if you mean mob or player skills...again....specifics.

6?) Again? "high-damage, broken skills"...contradictory isn't it? I'm guessing you are getting spanked alot, so the game isn't fair? You also say the game in PvE is repetative, but want standardized mob groups...b-o-r-i-n-g...without the occasional patrol to f things up, there would be no challenge.

Look, I think you might want to step back and take a break. Read up on the areas you have problems with, test them with different Heroes and PUGS and see what works. Before posting a rant, think through what you have to say, be specific, and don't make up words..."abuse of the English language will not be tolerated"...I am no stranger to frustration, trust me. But I think you are more apt to get constructive feedback if you ask specific questions including details about areas, updates, character builds, etc. I don't know what to tell you other than...Take a deep breath...slow down...and be specific.

Where are you having the problem?
What profession are you playing?
What skills/build are you using?
What enemies are you trying to kill?
What updates "Stupidified" the game for you?
Have you looked into strategies or counters to the skills giving you trouble?

Slow down and you might get the help you seek...If you are ranting just to rant...you will find most people don't care and will just flame you. As for me, I'll make fun of you a little and then offer help...

Nemo the Capitalist · Apr 05, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

/deal with it imperfect product imperfect game imperfect world

samcobra · Apr 05, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

[QUOTE=TwinRaven]1) Damage to/from who? And "stupidifying"...George Bush's dictionary? Not exactly sure what your complaint is here...What profession you playing and how are you effected...specifics! [quote]
Basically things like non-removable shouts, weapon spells, forms, and teleports added to stupidifying the game, making skills that ironically require less skill to play. Also, overpowered damage skills which were obviously designed for the retarded pve environment setup did that also. Also, in terms of professions, I have everything except a pve assassin, ele, and dervish. Things like stupid mobs that are beat by beating their stupidly high damage with your own stupidly high damage is what i'm talking about.

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2) There's that word again...slowing it down? That's not a bad thing. I know of no PvE area that is too hard. Thunderhead Keep is challenging as are FoW, UW and FoS...but then, it keeps them from being boring and simple. Searing flames got you down? Run a ranger and take less damage...or RUN AWAY!

notice that I prefaced the word difficult and ended it with apostrophes, like 'this' I'm not saying these areas are difficult, but thats what ANET wants them to be. Case in point here is DoA. The problem with these places is that they ARE boring and simple. The monsters have stupid skillbars, behave in stupid ways, and require stupid gimmick builds that form the 'pve meta' of the area. Namely, the idea of tank, monks, and nuker that is pretty much the mantra of most pve builds.

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3) You playing a Mesmer and can't find a party? I run all sorts of groups through PvE just to see what can happen. "Forcing" builds? Doubtful...you are simply experiencing the same lack of imagination that plagues every outpost. Some people just expect a certain group formation to work best...blame them, not ANet.

In most outposts, there is no reason for my mesmer to even get a pug, as the majority of pve players are quite bad. However, what I man by forcing builds is that the endgame pve content is specifically designed so that very few real balanced non-gimmick builds are effective. If ANeT wanted every party to just have a warrior, 3 eles, 3 monks and a necro, i'm pretty sure they wouldn't have made all the other goddamn professions.

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4) Mobs' skillbars are crap? I'm confused...do you want the game harder or easier? Mobs tend to get away with things players don't...bigger aggro-bubbles, seeing through walls, etc. If they use skills that make no sense (i.e. shield bash without a sheild) so be it...plenty of mobs use skills without having the proper equipment....been that way since day one. You want hydras to carry wands and offhands? It'd look silly with those short little arms...

1) there are absolutely no skills that REQUIRE a wand or offhand. Stop being stupid. 2) there are skills *shield bash for example* that require a shield for their effect. Thats what i'm talking about. Next, about monster skillbars, they are badly designed and no good player would run them. Why not give the mobs a skillbar that another good player would run so they actually require better team builds to beat. Examples of stuff I like, therefore, is the mursaat monk bosses, which can much more easily be beaten with a mesmer and actuallly somewhat require tactics to beat and also the hekhet rangers that use Rampage and melee. Most of the mobs anet comes up with have stupid skillbars and use stupid skills. Third, if you'd take the time to stop being daft, maybe you'd understand that what I'm claiming is imbalanced is the gimmickyness of pve. Everything is stupid, same mobs, with stupid, same skills, and stupid, same AI.

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5) Repetative? How so? Do you follow along in the story or just run through the missions? As for the second part: Exactly...why would anyone run with PUGS when their heroes can sometimes be more competant? Isn't that what you want? I mean, you sounded like you had a problem with PUGS earlier.

Yes, I have problems with pugs because the majority are retarded in pve, since there is really no good way of differentiating pve pugs (ie rank). don't tell me protector titles are good, because i've seen plenty of mending wammos with protector titles who claim they're good. Basically, the thing with pve is: if you've got a team with good monks and half decent damage dealers, you are going to succeed and therefore you call yourself a 'good player'. This need to change. With nightfall and factions, running through the story isn't even an option, so I don't know why you'd bring that up. again, stop being daft plz

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6)Huh? Sounds retarded...not exactly sure what you are trying to say. Something like it's too easy and even dummies can do it thanks to over-powered skills? I see sometimes there are skills that hit mobs pretty hard but with the AI changes, they usually run from AoE...sometimes the buggers even kite. I personally like the challenge even though it has slowed down my casual farming when I need a couple k. I'm still confused if you mean mob or player skills...again....specifics.

1) why wouldn't mobs run away from AoE? would you run away from AoE? if so, then so should they. 2) boss monsters and DoA monsters have properties that are clearly imba, such as fast casting times, double damage, and halfed damage recieved, and seemingly infinite energy. If the focus of pve wasn't as much about the damn damage, real builds and skillbars could be used instead of stupid high damage bullshit. Seriously, those touch necros in stygian veil spam 15 energy skills like no other. They don't have expertise and they don't have energy storage. why the hell should they be able to do that then?

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6?) Again? "high-damage, broken skills"...contradictory isn't it? I'm guessing you are getting spanked alot, so the game isn't fair? You also say the game in PvE is repetative, but want standardized mob groups...b-o-r-i-n-g...without the occasional patrol to f things up, there would be no challenge.

there is no reason I should be getting 'spanked.' I've beat this game enough times on the pve side to realize that its just retarded. However, my play ability is not whats being discussed. I don't want standardized mob groups and i'm not some retarded player who thinks that their mending is going to save them from high damage eles, but I do believe that monsters should have skillbars that are as innovative and challenging as real players' skillbars. I have quite a bit of pvp background which I basically refer to when I'm saying this. Most pvers dont give two shits about how imba their environment or builds are, but balance matters in pvp and i'm just crossing the divide here. What I want is more challenge, but not in the way ANET has consistantly done it by just increasing damage, but by implementing good builds to have to run against. Just like you don't ever improve in pvp unless you face good opponents, same applies to pve.

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Where are you having the problem?

I'm having a problem that people like you don't understand that pve is inherently imbalanced and other stupid people just decide that because some meta build works, that thats all that they should use and because ANET supports that belief with their game design

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What profession are you playing?

WHAT THe RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO DOES IT MATTER? that has no relevance to the case in point

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What skills/build are you using?

good ones

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What enemies are you trying to kill?

high-level ones, not your ascalon charr. Either way, it doesn't matter. The points are valid despite mob level concerns.

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What updates "Stupidified" the game for you?

The fact that mindless damage is all arenanet cares about. Although factions introduced a bunch of broken stuff in pvp, namely weapons, spirits, and teleports, those things in pve actually brought a dimension of skill (though oft underutilized) to the game. The problem was, that the monster levels were too stupid for that skill to be effectively utilized *example* if an assassin goes in, kills something, and shadow steps out, now the whole group has to worry about stupid shit like aggro, etc. therefore, people run gay shit like 'critical barragers'

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Have you looked into strategies or counters to the skills giving you trouble?

THE mobs have NO good skills that give trouble except the ones with damage. And that is easily solved by prot spirit and life barrier in extreme cases. I actually WANT skills that people would have to give a shit about seeing. *example* the mergoyle's spirit shackles+mind wrack. That, though pretty noob, is a good combo and a pretty decent skillset to have for antimelee. Basically, I want the AI to be able to mimic real players in their skillsets and abilities. That means, drop the f'n smite monks, or have them labeled as midline in a 8 party enemy group. So, you can have for example, a mob group with 8 players being:
1) a dervish
2) a paragon
3) dom mes
4) illusion mes
5) smiter
6) monk1
7) monk2
8) taint necro

or something cool like that. A good build, something that people might actually thing of running, instead of something retarded like balthazar's pendulum monks as the primary healers. like wtf are you thinking with that shit

lastly, as a postscript. Please, do not think of me as some level 5 wammo lfg in kamadan so I can fight the mobs out there. I am an experienced player and though I'm not the best by far, I request that you direct your comments towards me to reflect that and please do not patronize me. Thank you.

FoxBat · Apr 06, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I will wait to see what hard mode looks like before placing any faith in Anet to do anything about this.

VGJustice · Apr 06, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exoudeous

I'm a heavy pve'r but i think i side mostly with the pvp side of things.

in pvp a build that can completely destroy enemies is ovrpowerd and needs to be fixed, and most pvpers agree with that.

in pve however, they thrive on the overpowerd builds. Pve people, wheather they realize it or not, dont want balance. if they did certain classes woudltnt have a hard time getting into groups. in pve people want the most raw power possible, which is why they complain more when something gets nerfd

Agreed. Completely.

samcobra · Apr 06, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

thats the problem. PvPers who use broken skills like using them too. I'm pretty sure Wash Machine didn't really like the nerfs that recently came. however, it doesn't matter what people like, balance is balance.

xDusT II · Apr 06, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

i agree wholeheartedly. PvE is like a DPS brawl. One side thows a couple of thousand damage at you, you tank it and throw a couple of thousand back.

ANet's main problem is that they seem to link difficulty with big numbers. And the fastest way to defeat these enemies is to attack them with even bigger numbers. If PvE showed variety then people would start to think outside the simple tank and nuke strategy.

Enemies need to work together and have skills that compliment each other. The best we see are simple 2-combo skills like mind wrack and spirit shackles or famine and debilitating shot.

I'll be very dissapointed if all hardmode is is mobs that do 3 times more damage and have attribute points beyond anything logical.

wynoski · Apr 06, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exoudeous

I'm a heavy pve'r but i think i side mostly with the pvp side of things.

in pvp a build that can completely destroy enemies is ovrpowerd and needs to be fixed, and most pvpers agree with that.

in pve however, they thrive on the overpowerd builds. Pve people, wheather they realize it or not, dont want balance. if they did certain classes woudltnt have a hard time getting into groups. in pve people want the most raw power possible, which is why they complain more when something gets nerfd

I don't want PVE balance, I don't want hard mode...I want to be able to get through mission in 20 to 30 minutes while watching TV and drinking a beer..this is an escape for me not a life or amission...

As far as PVP...I had a hard time catching a cold with my necro and she's got prot on every continent...can't imagine that Spirit spamming was that bad...I loved Shields up on some of my heros...made Ruins of Mrah a cake walk.

Again...I do not want to be challenged. I enjoy PVE becasue the only thinking Iahve to do is change a few skills if I cannot get throught an area.

jummeth · Apr 06, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exoudeous

I'm a heavy pve'r but i think i side mostly with the pvp side of things.

in pvp a build that can completely destroy enemies is ovrpowerd and needs to be fixed, and most pvpers agree with that.

in pve however, they thrive on the overpowerd builds. Pve people, wheather they realize it or not, dont want balance. if they did certain classes woudltnt have a hard time getting into groups. in pve people want the most raw power possible, which is why they complain more when something gets nerfd

QFT <3

Easy != fun

Exoudeous · Apr 06, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Actually Id rathr have a challange. I was just saying that lots of people in pve just want power and rather the enemies not have equal abilities.

hopefully hard mode makes the enemies more equal, whcih would bring pve balance close to what pvp balance is.

Angel Netherborn · Apr 06, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by wynoski

I don't want PVE balance, I don't want hard mode...I want to be able to get through mission in 20 to 30 minutes while watching TV and drinking a beer..this is an escape for me not a life or amission...

As far as PVP...I had a hard time catching a cold with my necro and she's got prot on every continent...can't imagine that Spirit spamming was that bad...I loved Shields up on some of my heros...made Ruins of Mrah a cake walk.

Again...I do not want to be challenged. I enjoy PVE becasue the only thinking Iahve to do is change a few skills if I cannot get throught an area.

Huh? Are you sure you don't want to just go and play Yahoo games or something instead? It's the same sort of escape you're looking for, something to zone out of the real world.

If you're just lazy to figure out the best skills for the job, and since you don't sound like a hardcore player, then you really don't need to concern yourself with balance discussions, nerfs, hard mode, etc. since you can just wait it out and take some cookie cutter build and it'll work fine.

LoKi Foxfire · Apr 06, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

PvE has been Guild Wars weakpoint or strongpoint for the past 2 years depending on what type of player you are. If you enjoy long, challenging raids then Guild Wars may seem oversimplified or boring to you. However, if you enjoy quicker spurts of gaming then it's a blessing.

Sometimes I do wish the game mechanics were more advanced as it would make classes more fun to play and actually require skills. Warriors for example don't have any sort of aggro management or abilities to get enemies to concentrate on them. Instead, you have to lure enemies onto your single tank in areas like DoA and hope that they don't path around. Then again, you could argue that it's more realistic.. >.>

I do wish we could use full hero parties in areas like DoA or maybe in hard-mode though... it would be really fun to get to use some other heroes than my MM, SS, or SF nukers. :>